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New Canton Discussion
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TOPIC: New Canton Discussion
#1332
New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 4
Greetings to all.

I am starting this thread to stoke up discussion regarding the proposed creating of a Canton on the Eastern side of our lovely Barony.

Any documents and or discussions should happen here, and hopefully we this will help people to get all your questions answered as to make an informed decision.

Hopefully one of the next posts will be from one of the Proposed Canton's Officers.

In Service,
Ld Alaric de Colville
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#1335
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 30
Well, we haven't actually voted in any officers. Maybe the people we talked about taking positions at the informational meeting think it would be presumptuous to speak up.
We had some ideas for devices presented at one of the A&S nights. We've been kicking around some name ideas too. Those will be posted here.
We need to have another meeting before Twelfth Night.
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#1336
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 4
I will make myself available if you wish to schedule another meeting. I think another meeting should definitely happen and it should be done enough in advance that people have an opportunity to attend. While I liked the setting for the last meeting (it was quite comfortable), more people might show up if it was at the location the Business meetings are at, or perhaps at Fight Practice.

However I will say that no matter when the meeting is done, we WILL be voting at the next Business meeting after that. I feel that will have been sufficient time for people to ponder and ask their questions. So if anyone has questions and/or concerns they should make an effort to attend the Q&A session when it is scheduled.

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#1337
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 30
I think you misunderstood my call for another meeting. I didn't mean another informational meeting, but a meeting to organize and vote on a name and a device.
I understand your suggestion of meeting place, but one of the reasons for the new canton is because our center is the east side of town, not the Baronial meeting place or fight practice.
As for Q&A, that is what this forum thread is for. So, anyone have a question?
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#1349
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 30
Since there seem to be no questions, on to other stuff.
I have two suggestions for the canton name:
1) The Canton of the Eastern Gate,
2) The Canton of Sans Mons (literally "without mountains", which would be a "clear mountain")
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#1354
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 30
Who is planning to attend Twelfth Night? Maybe we could have a brief meeting there.
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#1355
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 10
I'm planning on going.
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#1357
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 1
Drogo and I should be there. He has class until 2, so we'll be there late afternoon. And I actually like both of those names
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#1358
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 1
THIS IS THE OFFICIAL LETTER OF CONSIDERATION READ AND DISCUSSED AT THE BARONIAL BUSINESS MEETING IN NOVEMBER 2011. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS YOU DON'T FEEL WERE ANSWERED WITHIN; OR MAKE COMMENTS REGARDING THE REQUEST.

09NOV2011
Business Meeting of The Barony of Fenix

Greetings to The Populace of The Barony of Fenix, We have come before you today to humbly request your consideration and support of our endeavor to create a canton, on the east side of Cincinnati. First we’ll explain Corpora requirements. Secondly, we’ll provide our motivation behind such endeavor. Then we’ll detail next steps in the process. Finally, we respectfully invite your questions, concerns, and comments.

To begin with, we’d like to delineate the difference between a shire and a canton – per Corpora;
Shire: local branch reporting directly to a kingdom or principality
Canton: local branch reporting through a barony
 *AND SUPPORTING OUR BARONY

Furthermore, Society Law requires that:
Other local branches: Below baronial/provincial level, branch establishment proceeds
according to kingdom law and custom, subject to the Society Seneschal‘s review and the requirements set forth below. These branches may adopt designations as provided for by the laws and customs of their kingdoms and as established in this document.

Minimum requirements include:
At least 5 members.
 “Clermont” has 15 ‘committed’ active members.
 There are more Fenix members in proposed “Clermont” area.
 “Clermont” is actively recruiting 10+ very interested people.
 “Clermont’s” projected growth is 40%+ each consecutive year.

At least 3 officers, including a Seneschal, an Exchequer, and one of the following: a Herald, a Marshal, or a Minister of Arts and Sciences. Local branches are encouraged to fill all the latter positions.
 “Clermont” has members interested and capable of Seneschal and Exchequer.
 As for Exchequer, there are no accounts until group approved, which means no additional work for Barony Exchequer.
 “Clermont” has warranted Archery and Heavy Marshals.
 “Clermont” members have served in many Officer positions (Barony & Kingdom level) and understand the time investment and the reporting requirements, which means no intensive training required of Barony.
 Canton members may hold Baronial Offices, except for Seneschal and Exchequer, and many members have expressed their desire to continue to support The Barony, in this manner.
 “Clermont” is adamant that we maintain a Chatelaine, as well.

A name registered with the College of Arms.
 We are currently considering some form of “Clermont” – meaning Clear Mountain, in a suitable period fashion.
 Additionally, we are working on an appropriate device, and colors.

Consensus among members in the area favoring establishment of the proposed branch.
 “In the area”, is ambiguous, but certainly includes all members affected – hence, our request for Baronial Populace Blessing.

The motivation behind our group’s desire to become a canton of The Barony of Fenix is largely based on three key factors: Travel Time / Financial Expense, Membership Growth, and Camaraderie.

We feel it is easier to become more active in the Society, when prohibitive factors, such as cost and time are eliminated. For example, If an “”Eastside” member participates in weekly heavy/rapier practice at current locations, and archery practice, and then the monthly Business meetings and A&S sessions, that is approximately 16 hours of drive time; 560 miles driven and approximately $75 in gas – per month. With these factors lessened, we feel we can spend more time “actively” holding practices, classes, collaborating on projects and spending quality time helping new members.

Similarly, we feel it is much easier to recruit and retain new members when; 1) The prohibitive economical factors are eliminated and; 2) Close strong relationships are potential. In essence, we realize it is much easier to bring new folks into a smaller group, that is conveniently located, and once they are assimilated, we feel they will participate in Baronial and Kingdom events. Therefore, it is our estimation that forming a Canton, under the Barony, will lend itself to membership growth throughout all.

Finally, our group just so happens to have very compatible goals and interests. We wish to express emphatically that we don’t disagree with any Baronial matters; members, or activities. We have found a formula for the way we like to research and learn. Similarly, the way we like to learn is instrumental in the What we like to learn, and in turn, how we structure classes and topics. We also enjoy collaborating, in order to compete, individually or as a group, at different levels of the Society.

We recently held an open discussion meeting regarding the establishment of “Clermont” and 2 relevant questions were asked by Their Excellencies that cover a plethora of points:

Q: What is it that your group will be able to do as a Canton that you can’t do already? i.e., why do you need your own separate practices; why can’t you just add extra Baronial practices, etc.?

A: As mentioned above, we feel we can grow the membership more effectively within the canton structure, by building close relationships that aren’t encumbered by distance, time and cost.

Q: How do you know folks will stay active? How do you guarantee longevity?

A: First, and most importantly, our current members have historically proven active participation, be it in official capacities or behind-the-scenes/support roles, in classes, events, demos, recruitment and other activities. Even though individual members may have had short periods of lesser “face time” appearances, their overall activity remains high. We all enjoy our commitment to The Society. The group has been meeting regularly, twice a month, for a year and a half, as the Eastside A & S. Secondly, if we didn’t have a certain level of trust in each other, in regards to activity, we would not have come forward with this proposal. None of us are afraid to hold each other accountable. Additionally, we have great communication. We have already established a website: www.wix.com/lucja00/eastside . Finally, we feel the excitement of teaching new members and learning new things will keep our interest sparked, therefore, perpetuating consistent activity.

Next Steps / Process:

Establishment and Advancement
1. The Society and Kingdom Seneschals will work together as necessary to process petitions for
branch establishment or advancement. Society members who wish to form a branch, advance an existing
branch in status, or advance a group of branches in status must first determine whether the area they have in
mind is eligible for such treatment. This process shall involve consultation with the Kingdom (and
Principality, if any) Seneschal, and with the Seneschals of any nearby branches.

 We will seek consultation and prepare a petition for proposed canton on the completion of:
1. Official support from The Barony
2. Consensus of group on our new name
3. Register Name & Device with College of Arms

2. The Society permits very broad participation by people who are not members as defined in
the By-Laws. However no part of the Society can be required to solicit or heed their views regarding branch
status, or any other situation where the opinion of the populace is to be consulted. Law, custom, or actual
practice may allow consultation with nonmembers, but it cannot be required.


3. If necessary, the members shall reach a consensus as to a proposed name (and device, where
required) and register it with the College of Arms before any petition for recognition can be granted.

 Currently in process of finalizing name and device

4. The members of the proposed branch shall prepare a petition for the proposed action,
stating the proportion of their numbers favoring the move, and demonstrating that the requirements are met.
The petition shall be submitted as specified by kingdom law and custom. The Kingdom Seneschal shall review
the petition to determine whether the proposed branch elevation conforms to Corpora and kingdom law and
custom, consulting royalty and other kingdom or principality officers as appropriate for the level of branch
under consideration. If the Kingdom Seneschal decides to recommend that the petition should be granted,
the action to be taken depends on the level of branch, as follows:

Sec8. Institutional branches and local branches other than baronies and provinces: The Kingdom
Seneschal shall advise the Crown if the petition is acceptable. After the Crown acknowledges the creation of the branch, the Kingdom Seneschal shall inform the Society Seneschal of the name, location and date of elevation, and the Society Seneschal shall then notify the Board.

 Petition for canton will be completed, as required, as soon as College of Arms confirms recognition of name/device.

At this time, we’d like to thank Their Excellencies and The Barony for its consideration, and allowing us to present the populace with our proposal. Please feel free to address any questions, concerns, or comments, to any one of us.

Regards,

“Clermont/Clear Mountain” aka Eastside Group
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#1363
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 2
My apologies to the group - I have not yet gotten in the habit of checking the forum for messages.

Personally I like the name "Canton of the Eastern Gate".

I will try to make as many meetings as possible but this semester I have a class on Thursday nights so most likely won't be able to make those gatherings. Having said that, I would like to offer my time and energy in whatever capacity would best serve the group.

In Service to the Dream,
Coleta
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#1364
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 2
In the 2 questions you have in the notes about membership and staying active I would comment. I only have second hand reports on the projected numbers you think can be pulled in, well I would say prove it to me, if you can not recruit and retain with what we have, I can not see it happening with a Canton. To the second question of retaining members it was an unanswerable question, you can not answer for what other people will do.

When I first started here in the Barony, my friends and I in northern Ky wanted to start a Canton, for the same reasons listed above, they are real reason, travel on a work day is a pain. It is usually easier if the meeting locations are close. Expense is always a concern.

But come on be straight up with your selves if not the rest of us, you are discontent with the way thing are going and it is easier to fix them in a small group than it is to work on a grander level.

So I charge all of you to really look deep figure out how a Barony that has to beg to get people to hold Baronial office needs to add at least 3 more office that need filled.

Randolph
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#1366
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 1
Randwulf,

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic. I'll give my personal responses to your inqiuries/comments, but will contend that I don't speak for the entire "eastside", so hopefully they will add to the discussion.



"I only have second hand reports on the projected numbers you think can be pulled in, well I would say prove it to me, if you can not recruit and retain with what we have, I can not see it happening with a Canton."

a. I do understand your want of proof of recruiting. We have many prospects on this side of town who feel participating in some of the weekly and monthly Baronial activities is time and cost prohibitive - hence, why they haven't been to westside practices etc...That is one of the main reasons we feel the Caton WILL work, but we do have good participation at the A&S and Archery stuff we do over here. I think Drogo said there were 14 folks crammed in our house for Keara's class! (I was out of town) - so some of our proof will have to be after-the-fact.

b. As for past/inactive members, at least since I've been playing - about 6 years, I believe more have moved from area due to school/work and needing more time for real life activities. I understand though, that there are probably members who are out there, who've become inactive or selective about events, because they are unhappy. I personally only know a few inactive members and their inactivity is due to life - they have chosen other hobbies, or just plain don't have time. I can't speak to inactive members who are unhappy about a situation - I have no information there.



"To the second question of retaining members it was an unanswerable question, you can not answer for what other people will do."

You are correct. We can't possibly know with any certainty what folks will do in the future, but we (those of us wanting the canton) have a pretty decent record of activity and service, and we feel we can keep interest generated in our small level, and encourage any new members to participate in Baronial, Regional and Kingdom events and activities. We truly feel we can be a spring board, and this will keep folks active, and enhance their experience as well as grow the Barony.

"When I first started here in the Barony, my friends and I in northern Ky wanted to start a Canton, for the same reasons listed above, they are real reason, travel on a work day is a pain. It is usually easier if the meeting locations are close. Expense is always a concern."

Thank you- I appreciate that you recognize this issue from first hand experience.

"But come on be straight up with your selves if not the rest of us, you are discontent with the way thing are going and it is easier to fix them in a small group than it is to work on a grander level."

I personally take offense to this comment, but like I said, I don't speak for the others. I love this Barony. I have a great time. I feel like I can't do enough to repay all those who have done for before us!

BUT - I don't want to feel embarrased that I don't have gas money to go to fight practices or business meetings or events! I want to be even more involved, but time and money prevent me from doing that.

The Society is set up to grow this way! Look at Flaming Gryphon for a great example of how their cantons keep interest at a smaller level - yet all contribute to the Barony.

As for being discontent - I feel like we are a big extended family, and like all families there are days we are more disfunctional than others. We have our crazy uncles and dilussional grandmas, and flighty siblings, and the whole nine yards - to that end, we have all the issues of a disfunctional family - but we're still a family! That's what makes this Barony unique and fun. But it also makes us upset with each other for various reasons. And then there's a whole lot of us who like to bitch, myself included. And more times than not it's just venting - we all do it. I honestly like everyone in the group - hopefully they like me too, but discontentment is definitely not why I'm in favor of a canton - because a canton supports it's Barony - it is not seperate.

If I were discontent with this Barony, I would tell everyone to go pound salt and I'd just go play with another - established group, instead of trying to invest myself, my time, my money into growing the one we have.



So I charge all of you to really look deep figure out how a Barony that has to beg to get people to hold Baronial office needs to add at least 3 more office that need filled.

Thank you - very sound advice, and I do contemplate it. I personally have been trying to incorporate newer folks into the things I do, like autocrating smaller events or exchequering, so that those things seem less daunting, for someone who's never done them. I really wish we had mailing lists, because I love sending people mail, and would honestly try to reach out to folks who've been missing.

Hopefully that gave you some insight to my motivation!


Lastly, I would like to extend an invitation for EVERYONE to come check out what we do..there's always an open invite!
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#1367
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 30
Welcome to the discussion, Randolph.

We have had many discussions at our Eastside A&S meetings concerning the creation of a new Canton. And we were very clear with Their Excellencies about our reasons for exploring this option. Discontent with the Barony was never seriously indicated in any of our discussions as a reason for creating a Canton, although we knew this would probably come up within the Barony. In fact, it is expressly against the rules of the SCA to start a new group as an attempt to divide an existing group.

You are correct that we do not know that as a Canton we will be able to recruit and retain new members. And that is one of the things the Kingdom looks at as an incipient group works toward full status. It is an established fact in group formation, that a small group will attract and retain more members than a large group. If we as a Barony want to grow, we need to create small groups as entrance points for new members. We already have a active A&S Meeting and a weekly archery practice. We feel that as a Canton, we can present a small organization to allow new people to become active members. That is the real reason the Eastside group has asked for this opportunity.

As for three more officer positions...not to minimize your concern, but that will be a Canton problem. If we are unable to prove that we can train up new people to fill those positions, the Kingdom will not approve us for full status. And we already have people willing to take those positions as a start.

What do we lose if our attempt is unsuccessful? Nothing. And what do we gain if our attempt is successful? More members and a more vibrant Barony.
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#1368
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 2
Elspeth,

See your answer to my officers question is part of the problem it's not a canton problem it is all our problem. We have for years struggled to fill offices in the barony it's self,so taking 3 people willing to serve,is a Baroial problem.

I am also sorry to disagree that we loose nothing. Time and effort from people like yourself and the other wanting to do this are far from nothing to me.

The small group grow more is an opinion, the same as large groups have more support so grow faster. I can respect your opinion even if I do not agree. It depends on the people in the group.


Lucia,
There was no offence intended I am only saying it is easier to fix the problems you see on a small scale "Travel,expense , and so on." And admitting that is the first step.

Flaming Gryphon started as a bunch of groups that joined together. Fenix is a small barony as it is but trust me I have thought more than once about starting a group in Nky again but I stop my self for many of the same reasons I have listed, and many more.

I am not saying any of you are wrong but still not convinced it is the right path for the Barony.


Now to all what do you gain by becoming a Canton that you do not have other wise?

You can hold sponsored A&S meetings, Fight practices, Social gatherings, with out suffering through business meetings. I see no real advantages and lots of work.
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#1369
Re:New Canton Discussion 2 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 1
Randwulf,

No apologies necessary, but thank you. I know you aren't trying to be nasty, and have the same loves and concerns for this Barony, as we do. I just got wound up

In regards to the issue of officers, I believe that a canton could benefit the barony, as a canton would have to have officers and would be training folks in differents areas, thus creating a "bullpen" of sorts. In addition, the canton folks can still hold baronial offices (except exchequer), so there's not a competition for the people resources. Many of the "eastside" have held or currently hold offices. Several others have indicated their desire to hold future offices at the baronial level (They were adamant that they didn't want being in a canton to interfere with their plans to serve the Barony). So we too hope to foster service to the barony - just a different methodology.

I agree with you in the growth of a group - it does depend on the people. But that is two-fold. You have many people who have served above and beyond, and may be taking a break, or are frustrated. You have folks who simply like to socialize - and have no desire to help. We have to admit that there will always be people who, for what ever reason, will not participate more than just attending an event for several hours. Similarly, there are folks who'll never go to an A&S to learn something new, or are not comfortable teaching what they know.

So we need to add new folks who want to learn, and do and have fun. But we also have to teach them how.

I think concentrating on our side of town, is a great way to start that recruitment and fostering. Dialing down in an area that is managable, reachable and familiar. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. So yes, I guess your comment about it being harder to fix things on a grander level is correct. I suppose it upset me at first, because I took it to mean we were too flawed to fix the barony, so we wanted to crawl off and do our own thing. But after much reflection, I realize that we are just bringing a new approach. If fixing and or/growing the barony is doable on "the grander" level - why isn't it fixed? That's the way it's worked since I've been here.

In response to Flaming Gryphon, I don't think how they came to be matters, as much as the model that is working for them.

I visualize things - so I see Fenix (the people and the area) as a table. I see the support eminating from 1 pole (people and resources) and trying to spread out over a massive area - in both space & time. Similarly, I see Gryphon as a table, but with 6 or 8 legs (or how many ever they have), spread out and supporting the barony, so that even if one - or two of the legs aren't as strong, or stable - the barony remains solid.

I honestly believe Fenix would operate better if was supported by 4-5 cantons from the different areas of town. I see folks getting in much more "activity & socialization time on a weekly basis, and then coming together at Baronial Events and fellowshiping - just like we do when we go to Regonial or Kingdom events.

As for what do we expect to gain, as a canton? Well for me, I suppose it's honestly pride (and I'm not saying that I'm not proud of Fenix) - but regardless of whether we're a canton, or not, I'm still going to do the things I do - but it's nice to be recognized or associated in that context.

Why do folks have households? What are the gains there? It's a comaraderie.

I'm not being fecisious, but the barony has always done the same things - and expects different results. Insanity
The world isn't flat... and the Barony will grow with Cantons!
Maybe a canton isn't the right path for the barony, but where does the path it's on now go?
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