Middlebridge (June 05): [Mid] Re: sca-middle-digest V11 #165

From: Andrew Heinrich <andrew.heinrich_at_gmail.com>
Date: Sun 19 Jun 2005 06:02:11 PM EDT
Message-ID: <42ce6b5005061915021692f811@mail.gmail.com>

> So, this is not a pointless war. Eventually, one way or another, regardless
> of who the president is, we would have been attacked and we would have been
> facing the same situation. You can't make peace with someone who sees you
> as their Satan and who thinks that it is their destiny to destroy their
> self-appointed Satan.

First let me just say that I have the utmost respect for our millitary
men and women.

Second, the war we are in has nothing to do with the SOB you quoted in
your post. War with the ones who attacked us would not be pointless,
in my opinion.

But anyway, this is going way into a place I really shouldnt go, and
should not have gone to in the first place. My apologies.

>
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sca-middle@midrealm.org [mailto:owner-sca-middle@midrealm.org]
> On Behalf Of asackville@juno.com
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 9:13 AM
> To: sca-middle@midrealm.org
> Subject: Re: [Mid] Re: sca-middle-digest V11 #164
>
>
>
>
>
> It's called keep them stupid and poor so that we'll have willing troops for
> pointless and uncessary wars. No education and no public broadcasting to
> make you think critically and ask questions, nor will you be able to find a
> decent job to survive on, nor be able to afford to take yourself to the
> doctor when you get sick, so that you'll willingly go into the military just
> so your family can eat and afford government provided healthcare.
>
>
>
> Fionnuala
>
>
>
>
>
> >>/peeks his green fuzzy head out of the trashcan again
>
>
>
> >I know how we can fund it -
>
>
>
> >1) Don't cut taxes at war time.
>
>
>
> >2) Don't blow a few hundred billion on an unessicary war.
>
>
>
> >It's interesting - the Brookings institute (a generally left or
>
> >liberal economic think group) and the Heritage Foudation (a right-wing
>
> >economic group) got together recently, and through the din of their
>
> >debate, one thing was very clear. Because of our spending and our tax
>
> >cuts, in the future we're going to have to raise taxes *and* cut
>
> >programs.
>
>
>
> >It's preposterously stupid fiscal policy that has gotten us into a
>
> >situation where we have to cut funding to public broacasting,
>
> >medicare, education, and other essential programs.
>
>
>
> >alright back into my trashcan now.<<
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "asackville@juno.com" <asackville@juno.com>
>
> +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ to unsubscribe, send a message to
>
> `~-, ,-~`~-, ,-~`~-, ,-~`~-, ,-~` majordomo@midrealm.org with
>
> . | | | | | | | | 'unsubscribe sca-middle' as its body.
>
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C573F7.57F22310
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>
> <div class=3DSection1>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Oh please, don't paint everyone in the =
> military with
> this broad brush.  Some people go into the military because they =
> feel that
> it is their patriotic duty to a great country.  And if those people =
> didn't
> answer their call to duty you and I wouldn't have the freedoms that we =
> have
> today.<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>It amazes me that still to this day that =
> there is a
> broad segment of our society who do not see the threat we face as a free
> nation.  Extremists want to destroy our way of life, and it has =
> absolutely
> nothing to do with <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Iraq</st1:place></st1:country-region>!
>  It has everything to do with the fact that the very freedoms that =
> we
> enjoy are a threat to their way of life.  If you don't believe =
> this, then
> I highly encourage you to read the Fatwa that OSB issued in 1998. =
>  This
> was way before Bush was president, so don't give me the argument that =
> Bush
> brought this upon us.  These people want to see <st1:country-region =
> w:st=3D"on">America</st1:country-region>
> and <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Israel</st1:country-region>, =
> <st1:place
> w:st=3D"on"><st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Saudi =
> Arabia</st1:country-region></st1:place>
> and any other free society bend to their extremists Islamic views.  =
> They
> want Taliban like regimes to rule the world.  If you think you have =
> it so
> bad, just imagine what it must have been like to have lived under the =
> Taliban
> in <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Afghanistan</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
>  Where you couldn't play music, women weren't allowed to go to =
> school or
> hold jobs.  Or should we have ignored the hundreds of thousands of =
> people
> who were murdered and tortured under Saddam?  <st1:country-region =
> w:st=3D"on">Iraq</st1:country-region>
> is a mess simply because we have extremists insurgents who want a chance =
> to
> undermine and destroy <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">America</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
>  Talk to people who have been in <st1:country-region =
> w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
> w:st=3D"on">Iraq</st1:place></st1:country-region> and they will tell =
> you that
> they are just as fed up with these extremists as they are with the =
> Americans'
> inability to stop them.  But anyone can look at history and know =
> that
> fighting a guerilla war (our own revolution was one) and realize it's =
> not an
> easy military objective.<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>  Source =
> "Frontline"<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>February 1998       =
> Bin Laden
> issues joint declaration (See Below) with the Islamic Group, Al Jihad, =
> the
> Jihad Movement in <st1:country-region =
> w:st=3D"on">Bangladesh</st1:country-region>
> and the "Jamaat ul Ulema e <st1:country-region =
> w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Pakistan</st1:place></st1:country-region>"
> under the banner of the "World Islamic Front," which stated =
> that
> Muslims should kill Americans including civilians--anywhere in the =
> world.<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>OSB's Fatwa, issued =
> 1998<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>23 February 1998 =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad =
> Bin-Ladin<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in =
> <st1:country-region
> w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Egypt</st1:place></st1:country-region> =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic =
> Group<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the
> Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in =
> <st1:country-region
> w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Bangladesh</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p>=
> 
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, =
> controls the
> clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the
> forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye =
> find
> them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every =
> stratagem
> (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, =
> who
> said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no =
> one
> but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my =
> spear
> and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders. =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Arabian =
> Peninsula</st1:place>
> has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled =
> it with
> seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in =
> it
> like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this =
> is
> happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people =
> fighting
> over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack =
> of
> support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should =
> all
> agree on how to settle the matter. <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>No one argues today about three facts that =
> are known
> to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone: =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>First,   For over seven years the =
> United
> States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, =
> the
> Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, =
> humiliating
> its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the =
> Peninsula
> into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>If some people have in the past argued about =
> the fact
> of the occupation, all the people of the <st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Peninsula</st1:place>
> have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' =
> continuing
> aggression against the Iraqi people using the <st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Peninsula</st1:place>
> as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their =
> territories
> being used to that end, but they are helpless. =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Second: Despite the great devastation =
> inflicted on the
> Iraqi people by the      crusader-Zionist =
> alliance,
> and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 =
> million...
> despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the =
> horrific
> massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade =
> imposed
> after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>So here they come to annihilate what is left =
> of this
> people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Third, if the Americans' aims behind these =
> wars are
> religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state =
> and
> divert attention from its occupation of <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
> w:st=3D"on">Jerusalem</st1:City></st1:place>
> and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness =
> to
> destroy <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Iraq</st1:country-region>, the =
> strongest
> neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of =
> the
> region such as <st1:country-region =
> w:st=3D"on">Iraq</st1:country-region>, <st1:country-region
> w:st=3D"on">Saudi Arabia</st1:country-region>, <st1:country-region =
> w:st=3D"on">Egypt</st1:country-region>,
> and <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Sudan</st1:country-region> into =
> paper
> statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee =
> <st1:country-region
> w:st=3D"on">Israel</st1:country-region>'s survival and the continuation =
> of the
> brutal crusade occupation of the <st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">Peninsula</st1:place>. <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>All these crimes and sins committed by the =
> Americans
> are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And =
> ulema
> have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an
> individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was =
> revealed
> by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in =
> "Al-Bada'i,"
> al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his =
> books,
> where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is =
> aimed at
> defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the =
> ulema].
> Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is =
> attacking
> religion and life." <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>On that basis, and in compliance with God's =
> order, we
> issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>The ruling to kill the =
> Americans and
> their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for =
> every
> Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do =
> it
> [EMPHASIS ADDED], in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy =
> mosque
> [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of =
> all the
> lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in
> accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans =
> all
> together as they fight you all together," and "fight them =
> until there
> is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in =
> God."
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This is in addition to the words of Almighty =
> God:
> "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, =
> being
> weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry =
> is:
> 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and =
> raise for
> us from thee one who will help!'" <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim =
> who
> believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to =
> kill
> the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find =
> it. We
> also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the =
> raid on
> Satan's <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
> w:st=3D"on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>
> troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace =
> those who
> are behind them so that they may learn a lesson. =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Almighty God said: "O ye who believe, =
> give your
> response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will =
> give
> you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that =
> it is
> He to whom ye shall all be gathered." <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Almighty God also says: "O ye who =
> believe, what
> is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause =
> of God,
> ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to =
> the
> hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the
> hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous =
> penalty, and
> put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For =
> God hath
> power over all things." <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Almighty God also says: "So lose no =
> heart, nor
> fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in =
> faith."<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>So, this is not a pointless war. =
>  Eventually, one
> way or another, regardless of who the president is, we would have been =
> attacked
> and we would have been facing the same situation.  You can’t =
> make
> peace with someone who sees you as their Satan and who thinks that it is =
> their
> destiny to destroy their self-appointed =
> Satan.<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Robert<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message----- 
> From: owner-<st1:PersonName =
> w:st=3D"on">sca-middle@midrealm.org</st1:PersonName>
> [mailto:owner-<st1:PersonName =
> w:st=3D"on">sca-middle@midrealm.org</st1:PersonName>]
> On Behalf Of asackville@juno.com 
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 9:13 AM 
> To: <st1:PersonName =
> w:st=3D"on">sca-middle@midrealm.org</st1:PersonName> 
> Subject: Re: [Mid] Re: sca-middle-digest V11 #164
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>It's called keep them stupid and poor so that =
> we'll
> have willing troops for pointless and uncessary wars. No education and =
> no
> public broadcasting to make you think critically and ask questions, nor =
> will
> you be able to find a decent job to survive on, nor be able to afford to =
> take
> yourself to the doctor when you get sick, so that you'll willingly go =
> into the
> military just so your family can eat and afford government provided =
> healthcare.<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Fionnuala<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>>/peeks his green fuzzy head out of =
> the
> trashcan again<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>I know how we can fund it =
> - -<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>1) Don't cut taxes at war time. =
> <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>2) Don't blow a few hundred billion on an
> unessicary war. <o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>It's interesting - the Brookings =
> institute (a
> generally left or<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>liberal economic think group) and the =
> Heritage
> Foudation (a right-wing<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>economic group) got together recently, =
> and through
> the din of their<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>debate, one thing was very clear. Because =
> of our
> spending and our tax<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>cuts, in the future we're going to have =
> to raise
> taxes *and* cut<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>programs.<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>It's preposterously stupid fiscal policy =
> that has
> gotten us into a<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>situation where we have to cut funding to =
> public
> broacasting,<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>medicare, education, and other essential =
> programs.<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>>alright back into my trashcan =
> now.<<<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From:  "asackville@juno.com"
> <asackville@juno.com><o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+  =
> to
> unsubscribe, send a message to<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>`~-,  ,-~`~-,  ,-~`~-,  =
> ,-~`~-, 
> ,-~`  majordomo@midrealm.org with<o:p></o:p>
>
> <span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>.  |  |     =
> | 
> |     |  |     | 
> |     'unsubscribe sca-middle' as its =
> body.<o:p></o:p>
>
> </div>
>
> </body>
>
> </html>
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C573F7.57F22310--
>
>
> From: "Randy Nicholson" <rnicholson2@comcast.net>
> +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ to unsubscribe, send a message to
> `~-, ,-~`~-, ,-~`~-, ,-~`~-, ,-~` majordomo@midrealm.org with
> . | | | | | | | | 'unsubscribe sca-middle' as its body.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of sca-middle-digest V11 #165
> *********************************
>
>

From: Andrew Heinrich <andrew.heinrich@gmail.com>
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Received on Sun Jun 19 18:03:37 2005

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